& Sisters. But Hollywood

is a different world, and a few months into the show’s second season Baitz was

– for all intents and purposes — off his own show, out of LA, and out of his ABC

contract.

AfterElton spoke with the openly gay writer as part of our

upcoming investigative article on gay characters in primetime. And the

groundbreaking gay character of Kevin Walker — one of the titular Brothers of Brothers

& Sisters — was the focus of the conversation.

In this, Baitz’s first

interview since acknowledging in The Huffington Post blog entries that he was “ousted”

from Brothers & Sisters — Baitz talks about how Kevin Walker, played

by Welsh actor Matthew Rhys, succeeded in becoming that rare thing in television:

an artistically satisfying gay character that made it to air with a romantic

life intact. Baitz also reveals his thoughts on the writers’ strike, love in

his 40’s, and explains what “ousted” really means.

Baitz (center) accepting a GLAAD Media Award

flanked by Brothers & Sisters cast.

AfterElton.com: I read your beautiful blog post on The Huffington

Post about leaving LA. And I’m wondering do you think you’ll ever get to a

point where you’re really grateful you achieved the impossible lottery win of

getting a hit show on the air?

Jon Robin Baitz: I’m [completely] grateful. More proud

than grateful. I feel more that I learned how to do this — almost, as you said

impossible thing — which requires the cooperation, patience and help of many

other people. But more than that, requires your own almost mono-maniacal drive.

AE: Which is difficult to keep up.

JRB: It is difficult to keep up. I think I did so for

a long time. I have a lot of perspective on it. Mostly it’s about what one can

do. And wanting to do more of it.

AE: What one can do in terms of…?

JRB: What one can create. Where perhaps one’s own

interests, orientation, worldview are gonna be a better fit. The irony is that

in terms of the approach to sexuality [specifically the sexuality of the Kevin

Walker character], it was an area where ABC was entirely cooperative. The only

caveat being a slight hesitancy when it came to rolling out the story of Ron

Rifkin, Saul.

Baitz with actor Ron Rifkin

AE: And you’ve said that you felt that was an ageist

thing more than a…

JRB: Definitely. And I don’t think it had much to do

with his sexuality. I think it actually had more to do with the fact that that

network knows its audience. You know the canary in the coalmine of American

culture has to be network television. And I think, of course, it is an ageist

culture. Which is a fascinating and absurd problem in a culture, really.

Because this sort of unconscious suicide pact that one has with what’s to come…

AE: Which is amplified in LA…

JRB: Utterly magnified. Completely.

AE: I’m wondering if part of ABC’s acceptance [of the gay

sexuality on the show] came from what you were bringing to it? When Kevin first

kissed Scotty, and the way that whole first relationship developed, AfterElton

wrote a long article on it because it was seen as groundbreaking. And in fact

it was.

JRB: To my amazement though. I mean I was the last to

know this was getting groundbreaking.

AE: I’m wondering if that was part of the reason why this

character was so successful? That you didn’t think of it as something that

remarkable?

JRB: It wouldn’t have occurred to me. At any theater

in New York

you know you’d be hard pressed to find a character that isn’t gay. [laughs]

AE: Do you think also that because you came with that

attitude — that of course the gay character is going to have his sexuality be as

played out as everyone else’s — that your own attitude affected the executives'

attitudes, and got into the DNA of the show, and was part of why the audience

was so accepting and unsurprised by the sexuality of this character?

JRB: I think yes to both. I think there were certain

ways in which the network and studio were very, very trusting of my take on

where we were — and other [ways] where they weren’t so willing. But certainly

one area [they were comfortable with] was the presupposition that I live with,

which is that we’re all the same thing. That there’s this basic human

condition.

I just couldn’t bear the thought of if I was going to do [a gay

character on the show] for there to be the merest hint of ghetto-ization. Him

being a sort of side character, introduced as merely the comic relief or

campiness. Which we’ve seen done really, really well and to great comic effect,

and even more done in sort of a way that was beautifully relevant by Will &

Grace. But I thought this could be something different. As much as I admire

Will & Grace.

AE: And Max Mutchnick [co-creator of Will & Grace, also

interviewed for our upcoming article] said really nice things about you and the

character.

JRB: Oh, that’s so sweet. Well, you might find this

extraordinary, but we grew up in the same building.

AE: Oh, get out!

JRB: Yeah. He was little Max below me. What are the

odds of that?!

AE: I feel like whether it’s gay people coming out or

creating a show with gay characters, if you feint or seem coy or embarrassed

about it at all the audience picks up on that. And if you don’t, and it’s

completely egalitarian, the audience’s reaction is completely unsurprised.

JRB: Yeah. Egalitarian is the word I’ve used again,

and again, and again. And you know since what’s happened in the world is

everybody’s got someone they love in their orbit that is a homosexual. Everybody.

Whether they like it or not, whether they admit or not. But so much of the

culture has grown to the point where they have to face the irrefutable truth in

front of their eyes that someone they love is gay, and it is no longer okay to

shun them. It’s no longer acceptable.

And certainly [the Walker

family on Brothers & Sisters] is incredibly evolved, which is one of

the things I’m proud of. They have a deep sophistication. And one of the things

I think made the show work was it was sort of manna for people to hear

conversation again on television in which thoughts were fully formed.

AE: I also think that what you’re saying about them being

sophisticated in terms of the gay content, I think it’s also very realistic

that not only the Walker clan but the McCallister clan who is largely Republican

is very accepting, and protective even, of their own gay brother.

JRB: And I know those people. And so do you and so do

all the readers at AfterElton, know these people whose Republicanism doesn’t

include bigotry.

AE: What else do you think happened right that helped

this gay character be successful?

JRB: It couldn’t have succeeded with an actor who had

any reluctance whatsoever. Because in Matthew Rhys there’s this fabulous combination

of openness, availability, intellect, humility, arrogance, self-deprecation,

introspection. He has underpinnings of Hamlet to him. And underpinnings of

Monty Python too. And occasionally the out of control qualities of Lenny Bruce.

And I think he’s wildly educated about the self — his self. And so it was very

useful. We cast it very well. And I think that went right.

Also there might be something sort of Welsh about him, he’s

such a convivial man, that the notion of being embarrassed by [the character’s]

sexuality couldn’t have been further from the truth.

AE: And the original actor — Jonathan Lapaglia [who

played Kevin Walker in the original pilot]?

JRB: I think even in discussions before he did it

there was a sort of informal list of dos and don’ts, wills and won’ts.

AE: Were these in terms of sexuality?

JRB: Yes. He just wasn’t comfortable. And you know, I

loved Jonathan. And we both admitted that the fit was very, very rocky. And it

just wasn’t that perfect marriage between an actor and a part. He had a kind of

tension about it. We were very frank with each other about it. And he professed

to understand what happened.

Joanthan LaPaglia (l) and the origianl cast of Brothers & Sisters

AE: Did any of the other actors who’ve played Kevin’s

love interests — have they had issues with the intimacy?

JRB: No, not at all. You know Jason Lewis is again an

evolved, thinking, sensitive man. And Luke MacFarlane is a brave, bold,

athletic, curious actor who has a lot of training. You know, he came out of Julliard,

came out of the theater. So those two in particular were entirely comfortable

with the entire business.

From left to right: Luke MacFarlane, Rhys, and Jason Lewis

I’m telling you, there’s a list of actors that we’d go out

to to play guest star boyfriends — and it would come back: doesn’t want to play

gay, doesn’t want to play gay. I’m not going to name them.

What else went right was also the sophistication of the executives

at ABC/Disney. Steve McPherson [Entertainment President at ABC, also

interviewed in our upcoming article], though voraciously heterosexual from all

appearances, seems to be entirely comfortable with the direction of the

culture, of our sexual evolution.

AE: So no constraints were put on you of any kind

regarding the sexuality of the [Kevin Walker] character?

JRB: Absolutely not.

AE: Is there something you’re particularly proud of,

because you feel like it pushed the envelope in terms of Kevin’s sexual and

romantic life? In terms of visibility?

JRB: I think that those places where Kevin was forced

to confront his own internalized homophobia were the places where it was most

interesting and most real to me. The places where his fear of commitment would

get in the way. The places where maybe he had met the love of his life in

Scotty, and couldn’t possibly deal with it at that stage of his life.

From B&S episode 105: Kevin reacts badly when Scotty kisses him in public.

AE: Do you feel like at some point since leaving the

network, you may just feel like a free man — and feel a little giddy about it?

JRB: I have mixed feelings. I feel ambivalent. I look

forward to making more television. I would not describe my state as giddy.

AE: Well I mean — at some point that you may feel that

you got out with all your limbs intact?

JRB: Well, I definitely do feel that. I have very complicated

feelings with all of it. But I definitely feel that. And I’m not one to live in

regret, or to dwell. I’m really enthusiastically at the moment imagining new

shows.

AE: That’s a sense of freedom.

JRB: Yes. There’s no giddiness about it though. Look,

I left behind a creation. I left behind something that was very expensive

personally to make. And so I have very strong feelings about it being as good

as it is. In no small measure — as much credit as I give to others it’s not

very often — I mean maybe this is the first time that I’ll say that I did

cast that show.

Those actors for the most part committed to doing it because I

either had relationships with them or they knew my work in the theater. And

they’ve all been on the record as saying that. So you know, it’s bittersweet.

I am perhaps not well suited to the rigors of network

television. I think I’ve discussed this with my friend Aaron Sorkin [creator of

the West Wing]. You know I think maybe the world of it is changing. I

don’t know, maybe there’s something about being a real playwright and doing that,

that it’s a difficult fit. But I am looking forward to doing it again.

AE: I was wondering if you’d say something about the

writers’ strike. I somehow get the sense that the people at the top, the

corporations, think that this may work for them in some way? [Note: This interview was conducted before the strike ended.]

JBR: Well, you know I’ve written about that endlessly.

They were able to write off some very expensive deals. I mean, I don’t want to

tell you how much they don’t have to pay me. …

This — like all sad wars — was a comedy of errors where

everybody underestimated the rage and intractability of the other side. And I

think that the [writers’] guild sort of marched into it a little bit blithely. The

studios couldn’t believe it was happening. The CEOs, perhaps hip to the fact

that the business is changing, didn’t want to give up what they had left of it.

And the last vestiges of an old culture that believed that writers were quote “schmucks

with Underwoods” [a typewriter from the ‘40’s] — which is what Jack Warner said

about writers. That culture still lives on at the highest level of the

studios.

And there is a kind of a world where the creators of TV

shows and of content and of movies are far more entrepreneurial now. And I

think that it’s galling to the studio heads.

So yes — they were able to write off some expensive deals. I don’t think

that they fully understood or imagined that the thing was going to be as

expensive in terms of good will as it has been for them.

AE: Do you think they even now understand?

JRB: Look. I don’t think those guys understand

anything. If I ran a business and I was trying to deprive people of what they —

I don’t think they understand anything at all. They have empty studios. They

had grips, carpenters, electricians [out of work]. How do they face themselves

when they won’t even come to the table to negotiate? This is what went on for

months.

AE: Don’t you feel like a part of that is they think — this

is helping us financially?

JRB: Yes. … I think that corporatization — it has

some good parts. But it’s also a disease. And I think there’s an abdication in

it. I don’t think they were socially responsible, the CEOs.

AE: Do you think they have any interest in that?

JRB: I think they have a moral obligation to be,

frankly. Putting aside how much money they take home personally, I think they

have a moral obligation to be emotionally and intellectually literate. And I

think in many cases they are neither.

AE: Do you feel like a lot of writers who’ve been a part

of the strike have gotten really screwed in the long run? Have had to sacrifice

a lot. And that they’ve sort of taken advantage of that?

JRB: You are talking to someone who has created a hit

show who has been force majeured. Yes. The answer therefore is yes.

[Force majeure is a common contract clause which frees the parties of

obligations to the contract in the event of unforeseen events. The unforeseen

event in this case being the writers’ strike, which has allowed the studios to

end many contracts of those involved in the work stoppage.]

AE: You spoke a little bit about [love] on your blog post

[where Baitz discusses a relationship that ended around the time he left the

show]. What do you have to say about finding love as a gay man in his 40’s?

JRB: I think it requires authenticity. And I feel

that that means that you live an entirely authentic life as best you can, and

that that’s all you can do. You can’t try and make yourself palatable to the

world as it moves ever quicker and ever younger. You can only live in your now.

And I’m at peace with that.

I think that if you come to terms with your nature

and what you find is that you’re deeply romantic and somewhat sentimental and

perhaps overly attuned to the crisis of aloneness — which lives with you no

matter how happily married or coupled you are. There are people on this planet

who feel fundamentally part of themselves is apart, alone. And so I think you

have to deal with all of that stuff. If you get to your 40‘s and you’re not

dealing with it, it doesn’t get easier. So that’s what I’ve been doing. I think

it’s really hard to be a real person. That’s the most I can say about that.

AE: Well thanks so much. I know you’re going to go on to

do all kinds of wonderful things.

JRB: …with lots of gay characters floating around.

AE: AfterElton will be so happy.